turning the page: a live podcasting event
episode details
Hey baby, long time no talk. We’re back with a bonus episode from our second live podcasting event, Turning the Page.
We partnered with Little District Books, D.C.’s resident all-Queer bookstore, to share the history of Queer bookstores in the District. Featuring Susan, a former assistant manager from Lambda Rising, Jane a Lambda Rising manager and owner of Lammas, and Patrick owner of Little District Books, you don’t want to miss this lively panel full of memories, advice, book recs, and more!
Since this was recorded live, the format of this episode will feel very different than our typical content. If you’re new to Queering the District Podcast, might we suggest heading to another episode in season one as your starting point.
You can find transcript for the video version below and a pdf version here. You can find a pdf transcript for the audio version of the episode here.
We want to thank Jane, Susan, and Patrick with Little District Books for partnering with us on this amazing event.
If you’re sad you missed this event, be sure to follow us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and YouTube to stay up to date on all things Queering the District Podcast.
Have a story to share? Think we missed something? Give us a call, and bare it all after the beep at 202-753-6570.
Audio editing by Abby Stuckrath and Julia Hay
Videography by Julia Hay
Video editing by Julia Hay and Ellie Stuckrath
Audio editing by Abby Stuckrath and Julia Hay
transcript
Abby: Thank you for being here! [audience claps]
So I'm Abby, I'm the host of Queering the District Podcast. It's a podcast all about D.C.'s LGBTQ+ history. We just came out with our first season last summer. It was all about the history of Queer bars. We went all the way to prohibition until today, and in the midst of us working on our second season, we are throwing these live podcasting events.
And if you don't know, D.C. has a very storied history here of LGBTQ, gay, lesbian bookstores. And so, I thought I would walk you through a little bit of it before we introduce our fabulous panelists. So starting in 1974, two longstanding Queer bookstores opened. We had Lambda Rising off of Connecticut Ave in DuPont Circle, and then Lammas, a lesbian jewelry and then it went to bookstore, which opened right here in Eastern Market. And then it moved to DuPont Circle. Lambda Rising is the birthplace of D.C. Pride. Lammas also hosted legendary lesbian feminist events and was actually the meeting location for the Lesbian Avengers, which was a protest group in the 90s. Lammas closed in 2000, and Lambda closed in 2010, and then 12 years later, another entirely Queer bookstore enters the scene.
And it's a Little District Books, where we are today. [audience claps] It was first on Eighth Street in this cute little location, which used to be known as the Gay Way. And then they just moved here a couple of months ago, and it's a bigger, more fabulous space, and we're so excited to be here. So now that I've given you the spark notes of that history, let me introduce you to our panelists.
We have Susan, who was the assistant manager at Lambda Rising in the 90s. We have Jane, who was a Lambda Lambda Rising manager and then owner of Lammas. And then we have Patrick, the owner of Little District Books. Thank you all for being here, and I'm so excited to dive in. So I thought just to give everyone kind of an intro, tell us a little bit about what brought you to D.C., and then how did you get involved?
How did you get into this world of owning a bookstore? Managing a bookstore? Yeah. How did this all happen for you?
Susan: Well, I was, I would say I was trying to find myself. I grew up in a small town in northwestern Pennsylvania, and I had already come to D.C. once and kind of couldn't, couldn't make it.
So I went back to mom and dad, and then that was in the early 80s. And then I came back in the late 80s, and I decided that I needed to, I thought that working at a gay and lesbian bookstore will be just what I needed. So I applied, and I got the job, and it was amazing because I really needed to explore my sexuality and coming out, to figure things out, and so that helped me there. And also, I love books.
Abby: Right, right, naturally.
Susan: That was an obvious, you know, it had to be a book place I always loved, I went to the bookstore, not the bookstore, the library a lot when I was a little kid. I rode my bike there and just would sit in the stacks and just look at everything. And then I became a librarian. So it all makes sense.
Abby: A natural progression.
Susan: Yes. Natural progression. Yes.
Abby: Jane?
Jane: You're being a little humble. You were promoted fairly quickly, as I recall from,
Susan: the lowly...
Jane: Lowly clerk [audience laughs] to a women's book buyer or assistant book buyer.
Susan: Yeah, I was actually the music and video.
Jane: Music and video buyer
Susan: And assistant manager.
Jane: Okay. Right.
Susan: And you were the book review...
Jane: Yeah.
Susan: Editor.
Jane: Yeah.
Susan: And you taught women how to write. [Jane begins talking at same time and then stops]
Jane: [quietly] Awww.
Susan: Oh, go ahead.
Jane: No, don’t stop. [audience and Jane and Susan laugh]
Susan: Were you the women's book buyer?
Jane: I was.
Susan: I don't think I realized that.
Jane: But for a very short time.
Susan: Okay.
Jane: Yeah.
Susan: Great.
Jane: Yeah. Well, we had a very, very, very gifted book buyer, Kent. Fordyce.
Susan: Kent Fordyce, yes.
Jane: Yeah, I mean, among book buyers, [addressing Patrick] you know how valuable they are. You're probably your own book buyer. I don't know, and he really set the tone for the store, and raised the bar.
Susan: Raised the bar.
Jane: He really did. Yeah. So you asked how I came to D.C.? I grew up in a small town, Toon, western Maryland. And when I left at 17 to go to college, I was never coming back to that little town. Right. So I went to University of Maryland, and I graduated in December of ‘86, and I needed a job.
And I saw in the Blade, I guess it was the Washington Blade, job at Lambda Rising to be a book clerk. And I went down in a terrible snowstorm, and I got hired on the spot. And I think the reason was the assistant manager at the time, Hugh, I don't remember his last name, didn't make it into work.
He said, oh, it was just snowing too much. Apparently he lived a couple of blocks from me, so... [audience and panelists chuckle] So I got the job.
Abby: Amazing. Patrick?
Patrick: So I'm originally from Kentucky, and I moved to D.C. basically for work. I wanted to work for the federal government, and I did that basically until COVID came and stole all the joy of the social life.
And so I was like, I got to do something besides sitting in my cubicle that is now just my apartment. So I decided to open my own business and have, like, slowly narrowed it down. I was like, I want to do my own business. And then I was like, oh, I really want to do a bookstore. And, it took me a while to figure out that this was the bookstore I wanted to do.
Because I wanted to do something that no one else was doing in D.C. And there are so many great bookstores here. So yeah, after a lot of learning, I was like, I think I know what I'm doing. And I opened the store, and I did not know what I was doing. [audience laughs]
Jane: That rings true for me too.
Abby: Speaking on that, what were some of the biggest lessons that y'all learned about yourself and about the space that you were creating? Like, what were some of the biggest, like, life lessons that you still carry with yourself today? And then, Patrick, what you're working through every day currently?
Jane: I'll take a quick answer to that. So I remember when I bought Lammas, it was 1993, and I worked at Lambda Rising, so I knew, oh, I knew everything. Right? And someone had told me that Mary Farmer, who owned Lammas at the time, that she couldn't afford air conditioning. I thought, well, that's silly, you know? Well, guess what... [audience and panelists laugh] I learned pretty quickly that, yeah, it's tough and it can be hard to make money. You know, you really got to stay on top of everything. So that was the lesson I learned.
Susan: I remember going to Lammas. It was an amazing bookstore on P Street when, you moved it, right? Or was it there already?
Jane: It was there when I took over.
Susan: Yeah. Great.
Jane: Yeah, Mary was going to close the store, and I was kind of over Lambda Rising at the time. Well, it was Deacon, the owner, [Jane chuckles] and, you know, he’d tell you the same thing, I think I asked for a raise, and I didn't get it, so I was just ready to go. But I found out that the women's bookstore was for sale, and it was going to close, and I didn't want that to happen.
I'm going to give a shout out to Jim Marks and Nick Apostle. Nick loaned us the money to buy Lammas. So if any one is to thank for saving the women's bookstore to keep it from closing, it's that man. So, yeah.
Abby: Speak on the history of Lammas a little bit, about why it was such a unique place.
Jane: Well, sure.
Abby: And then we have pictures to prove. [panelists laugh]
Jane: I put the time in, so I'm going to go for it. So this is Lammas. It was 1973. They actually opened maybe eight months before Lambda Rising did and like you say, it was a jewelry store, right. So this is the original location. It was over here on Seventh Street, I think. And this was Mary Farmer, who started it all, and I really admired her. And I still do.
Deb was supposed to be with us tonight, but she could not be here. She was the manager. That's an early photo.
Oh, there we go. Yes. All right, so there it is. When they moved to the new location. And Donna Niles, another great book buyer, there's Audre Lorde and Joanne. I think this is at Lammas. This is before my time. Alice Walker was at the store before my time.
But, yeah, that's what made it special, right? Just the people who would come in. You know, all these authors.
Susan: And it was a women's space, a women's space, you know, it was like, which is very different from Lambda Rising.
Jane: Which is very much a men's space. That's the last photo I have on this roll.
Susan: I would just say, as a woman working there. I felt like it also reached out a lot to women. There are a lot of lesbians who came there.
Jane: At Lambda Rising?
Susan: Yeah
Jane: Oh, absolutely.
Susan: Yeah, yeah. But it was a male like dominated because of what was going on in the in the back.
Jane: Yes, yes. [to Patrick] Where’s your magazine section?
Patrick: We don’t have one of those. [panelists laugh]
Abby: For folks that don't know, there was a special corner in the back of Lambda Rising that had some naughty magazines and such.
Jane: Oh, it wasn't just a little row. [audience laughs]
Susan: It was like that long [gestures at a wall of books]. And it was, it was a place for cruising, really. But I mean, that was a safe space because at the time it was dangerous for men to meet. And women went there too, but didn't really cruise. We just smiled. [audience laughs]
Jane: We just smiled at each other. So there is that, I did break up a handjob one night [audience laughs].
That would not have happened at Lammas. And I included this to show, kind of the breadth of what we had, the t-shirts and stickers, but really some really just great feminist books. It wasn't all lesbian. Oh, all of our bumper stickers, which I see. You have a nice collection of stickers out there. There's British Jane.
Susan: British Jane, I remember her.
Jane: She worked at Lambda and Lammas.
Abby: So there was a lot of cross-pollination there?
Susan: There was.
Abby: A lot of jumps back and forth.
Susan: Jane used to work at Lambda Rising and, yeah.
Abby: So what was, other than the fact that Lambda was a more gay, male-oriented space, but was accepting to everyone in the community and Lammas was more, a lesbian, feminist focused space? What made it, uniquely special? And they lasted for a long time in the city. What made them so longstanding?
Susan: There really weren’t alternatives, I don't think, where you could buy those books at the time. And everything changed, of course, with Amazon coming along and Barnes and Noble and things like that. And they started buying gay and lesbian books, but, at the time, you really couldn't find those books anywhere.
They also had a mail delivery service. So, and I actually remember, when I was at home in the late 80s, after I came back home from D.C., and then before I came back the second time, I did, I think I was...
Jane: Oh, you were on the cover. Yeah
Susan: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, that's not what I meant. The list! I was on the list.
Jane: Oh, the list,
Susan: I was on the mailing list. And I would get, I would get the book report in a brown paper, a brown paper package at my door in Greenville in a small town. And it was great. And, you know, my parents had no idea what it was, although they wondered. But, and it was so life affirming.
Does that sound too, too, you know, much? But I mean, it was cause you feel really alone. So it really you see, there's all those other people out there who are doing, you know, surviving and having a, you know, a good time. And a good time reading whatever they were doing. I don't know. [Susan and audience laugh]
Jane: I would have said, you know, at one time our biggest competitors were, you know, homophobia, misogyny, and isolation, and Lambda Rising and Lammas changed that. Right. [to Patrick] And you keep that going every day. But then the competitors...
Susan: [to Patrick] I applaud you for that.
Jane: Absolutely. You know, but eventually competition became, Crown Books was there, right? And, some others, Barnes and Noble started, but then really it was the internet, I think that, you know, video killed the radio star. The internet.
And I found it disturbing because I thought, well, everyone's now sitting isolated again, and they're in their little rooms and they're not coming out to events. And but I'm sure that's changed now with... [gestures to to store].
Abby: Yeah, and I wanted to ask you that, Patrick, you've opened the store in a very different conditions of not just acceptance for the Queer community, but just like after COVID or in the midst of it, really, what was the community's response to you opening the store?
And like we were saying, like we're now competing with Kindle, you're competing with online, you're competing with, short attention spans these days. So, like, what do you do to keep the community engaged and wanting these books, or is there just like, a kind of like a natural love for the space?
Patrick: Oh, I just do a little bit of everything and hope it kind of sticks. [Abby and audience chuckle]
Yeah, I mean, it's the a big part of it is that, like, I enjoy going to bars and things, but like, I'm not someone that goes out and does that all the time. And I was like, there have to be a lot of people in that boat. So with the old space, it was very much a lot of like, we're just going to have some books, and see if they show up. And they did, and that was very nice. And then this space is much more of a like, you know, building more of a community space. You know, we couldn't do a lot of events and stuff. I mean, the old space was 750 square feet-ish, and we had one event that had like 46 people, and people were just, like, falling all over each other. [audience laughs]
And I was just like, please don't let the fire marshal show up because I will be the enemy. So when it was time to either renew or move, I was like, now let's, let's see what we can do. And I'm really excited. We've got a lot of stuff. We do our book festival now, in the summer. I'd just like to, you know, do things that not everyone is quite doing. And people keep showing up.
Abby: I think, kind of like the undertone is that, like, running a business like this is no joke. It's very difficult. And what kind of keeps you going or kept you going? Like, what memories did you, like, lean on to give you the motivation to keep doing this really hard work?
Susan: I think one thing with Lambda Rising, it was kind of, a flagship store where a lot of people around the country who were visiting D.C. would come to Lambda Rising, to check it out because they were gay or lesbian and they would, or trans and, it was they were so excited when they came in.
Like, hi, I'm from Nebraska or whatever, you know, and then they buy t-shirts and stickers and everything, you know, and it was it was really important what we were doing. And it kept me going. That kept me going, knowing that I was helping people.
Jane: I would say, Deacon would certainly, Deacon and Jim would definitely echo you in that, and Deacon who really started it all. He had a vision to, he had gone to Oscar Wilde bookstore in New York, as you do. You go to New York, and this is in the 70s, and he came back to D.C. and decided to start the store here. And he said it was maybe a couple of months after the store had opened, and a guy came in just off the street, turned around, spun around and said, I'm home! [audience awwws and laughs]
And that, I think, encapsulates how we all feel. I mean, you just can't really get that feeling anywhere else.
Susan: And also working there, I'm not sure what your experience was, but my experience was that everyone there was, it was like a family and everyone kind of came to work with their heart on their sleeve, and they, you know, we helped each other through sad times and happy times.
And it was, we were really a family and that was very important. It was a lot different than any other work, you know, like where I work now in the government, it's not the same. You know, you don't do that. You’d get fired maybe. [audience laughs] I don't know, but, it was just, people would cry in the middle of, you know, if they were unhappy or just a lot of, you know, it's emotional.
Jane: We lost some...
Susan: And that was another part.
Jane: Some coworkers, yeah.
Susan: It was during when I, and when we both worked there, it's kind of the height of the AIDS crisis. And, it was extremely hard to see people who, like, I would see someone who had come in, was a regular who would come in. Say, hey, how are you?
And, you know, and he, then he hadn't come for quite a while. And then he showed up, a few months later, and he would be a lot skinnier and had, like, pale skin and funny colored skin. And I'd be like, oh, no, not again. And it would be like, no. And then we lost coworkers, too.
Jane: We lost...
Susan: Phil.
Jane: Buzz.
Susan: Buzz.
Jane: Tony, Dean, 23 years old.
Susan: Yep. Buzz was only the same age.
Jane: A little bit older. I think.
Susan: Yeah? You’re right.
Jane: I’m not sure. Okay. Paul Webb.
Susan: Yeah. Quite a lot of people. We were going to funerals for a while. It was not good.
Abby: What kept you going through that? Was it the joy of that space? The like the ability to be with your community while also like mourning with your community? What really, because that's like a very difficult time to go through, something that I think a lot of people in this room can't even imagine. So how I think out of a lot of the questions when you're listing off these names, my big question is: how? Like, how did you keep showing up?
Jane: I don't have an answer for that.
Susan: [quietly] I'm not sure. It was very, it's just really important. It was kind of in your gut, inside you, and you wanted to continue. And the people there were very, you know, just had regular customers who I got very close to with, and who like, someone who he would just come every day, seemed like every day, and he would just kind of sit on the side, and he would just chat with me.
We just talk. And he was really smart. We'd have these intellectual conversations. And then later he ended up writing a book, like a very famous book about perfume actually. But, he continues to be a writer. And he's very, I can't remember his name right now, but he's, I thought, oh, yeah, that makes sense. That makes total sense, you know?
Jane: But we had people talking, writers, authors upcoming authors. Yeah.
Susan: We had a lot of famous people...
Jane: Oh, we did.
Susan: at Lambda Rising. Well, who? Let’s see, Sandra Bernhardt. I met Martina Navratilova’s ex-lover.
Jane: Nancy Lieberman!
Susan: No, not her, different woman.
Jane: Oh, Judy Nelson.
Susan: Judy Nelson! She wrote a book called Love Match. Yeah, it was kind of silly, but anyway. Yeah, I met her.
Jane: I found out Susan Sontag's famous white streak was yellow with cigarette smoke.
Abby: Oh! [audience laughs]
Susan: Oh, a lot of people. Greg Louganis came. I don't know if you know him. He was a famous Olympic diver back in the day, very well known at the time. He came, and, he went up to, what we called the disco booth was, if you ever went into Lambda Rising and you looked up, there was like a booth where you could look down the office and go back and go up steps from the back. But, he was a he was chain smoking. And I was like, what?
You’re an Olympic swimmer! How dare you? [audience laughs] You know, but he, my dad was a swimmer when he was in college, he swam at Ohio State, like a championship team. And so I got Greg Louganis, signed a book, signed his book for my dad.
Jane: Oh, that's great.
Susan: And my dad was cool about it.
Jane: That's cool.
Susan: He loved it. Not my mom so much, but my dad.
Jane: Anne Rice visited the store.
Susan: Anne Rice, yes!
Jane: Not as a signing books, but I remember she said that she, she likes to read very, like she reads slowly. She doesn't like to miss a word. That was cool.
Susan: Patricia Cornwell stopped by when I was at the front. I was at...
Jane: Really?
Susan: Yeah, she's very short. She was up at the mystery bookstore, she said, which was a block up, and she said, “hi. I was at the mystery bookstore,” and this is before she was, she only had Postmortem was her first book, and she came in, and she said, “I'm Patricia Cornwell. Hi. Nice to meet you.
I was just up the street at the other bookstore, and I think that you should carry my books.” And I said, oh, well, are you gay or lesbian? You know, are they gay or lesbian themed? And she said, well, she didn't really answer the question. [audience laughs] She just kind of said, yeah, you should just carry my books. And then she had a copy of Postmortem, like a mass market. And she signed it for me and gave it to me.
Jane: That's so great.
Susan: And then I told Jim and Deacon, and they started carrying her books.
Jane: And now Nicole Kidman is starring in it.
Susan: Yes, now Nicole Kidman is in it.
Jane: Yes. I have since started to watch. It's a little weird. I'm not sure if I like it. [audience laughs]
Susan: I don't know, she’s kind of cold, but that's, you know, I love the books.
Abby: Who are some of your favorite at Lammas that came by?
Jane: My most memorable one was Norma McCorvey, who was Roe vs Wade. Right. And this is when she was a lesbian. [audience laughs] She later, you know, disavowed it and everything, but I remember she's, before we started, Holly Hunter was playing her in the movie, and she was like, oooh bada bing, bada bing, you know, like. [audience laughs]
So, she's there speaking, packed house. [to Patrick] Like, I can't believe you had 46 people come to an event. Sometimes we had zero.
Patrick: Oh, I’ve had plenty of those. I’ve had plenty, don’t worry.
Jane: Yeah, but we did have a packed house for Norma McCorvey, and so we're all sitting there, and all of a sudden someone starts rolling out the fetus pictures. The anti-choice posters.
It was two young people, and the crowd goes against them and get out of here. And the kid says, oh, you're not the owner here. You can't tell me to get out. And I stood up and said, I am the owner here, and you've got to leave. It was my proudest moment.
Abby: Patrick, what about you?
Patrick: I mean, like these the kind of things. They're not as common as they were then, you know, because people are able to be out in a much more way. But, like, these things still happen. I mean, the kind of, the keeping me going. I mean, there are people that like, we had an event that had literally like four people show up.
The author flew to D.C. from Texas for this event. And, I was like, I feel so horrible. Like she's never going to want to come back and all this. And one of the people that was there had flown to D.C. from North Carolina because this was the closest event to North Carolina. And he was like, I have to meet you because you're, I've been following you on Instagram for years and, like, your advocacy has changed my life.
And like, you know, I'm going to buy your book for like, everyone that I know. And we get lots of people. I mean, a big part of the book store is like people who are new to D.C., and they're like looking for Queer community, and they're not bar people. They find bars too stimulating like they're a bit socially awkward, possibly neurodivergent.
And they just need an approachable way to, like, find their crowd. And we do still get the celebrities as well, which I still am amazed because I'll be like, oh, I know who you are. And people are like you do? And I'm like, yeah, I've read your book, and I've read six of your books. [audience laughs]
Like, why wouldn't I know who you are? And they’re like this is very weird. And it's like, sorry, I got a little aggressive. [audience laughs] I mean, I still, there was one. This was like, we had only been open a few weeks, and there was a person going around, and I was like, he looks so familiar. And, I was like, I know, I know this person, but I can't think of his name. So like, you know, and then he came, and he bought a book, and he left, and as soon as he left, I was like, oh, he is the author of this book. I've seen his photo on the back. And five minutes later he posted a picture of his book in the store on Instagram. But I was like, why didn't you sign it?
Abby: Humble. A humble guest. So you kind of spoke on how like bookstores really foster, like a different kind of community. They're not bars. They're something completely different.
I think one of the things that we talked about was that the need for bookstores for, like, Lammas and Lambda had different competition, and now Little Districts has a different kind of competition.
But what when people ask, like, why do we need this space? Like, why are spaces like these essential? What memories come to mind?
Jane: I can answer. For me, it was a couple of days before we moved from. That was our P Street location. I lost the lease. I was going to say we lost the lease. I lost the lease.
I just wasn't, didn't have my eye on the ball. And, but, we did move over to 17th Street, which was also a nice location, but a woman came in, and it was kind of that same thing. I'm home. But she started crying. I was the only person in the store working at the time, and she just kind of cried because she had never told anyone else she was gay.
Abby: This was Lammas?
Jane: This was Lammas, yeah.
Susan: At the time, it was still kind of dangerous to be gay. And like, I just remember walking down the street at DuPont Circle holding hands with someone, and someone threatened me. On the corner. I just remember that really well. It scared me. I didn't want to hold hands after that, but I'm not sure where I'm going with this, but it was, it was a time when it was just not very accepted. And, well, Oprah. Oprah, she started her show having celebrating October 11th was Coming Out Day. I just remember that very well in the early 90s. And, so it kind of, I was feeling, thinking, oh, well, something's happening in the world that something's changing because she started celebrating.
She would have a cast of people on all these people who were gay and lesbian and, I always say gay, lesbian. I never say Queer. I'm sorry.
Abby: That's okay. It’s whatever you prefer.
Susan: I'm old fashioned. Yeah, but she, I remember her having that show. And actually, when I was at the bookstore, I called my mom, and I said, mom, Oprah's having a really good show today. You should watch. [audience laughs]
Jane: I'm not trying to tell you anything.
Susan: And that's it. I said, what's it about? Then, I said, well, coming out, she said, oh. And I said, because I'm telling you, you know, I'm coming out right now to you. I'm gay. And I told her on the phone from Lambda Rising. [audience laughs]
Abby: It’s kind of iconic, honestly.
Susan: Like at the counter. [audience laughs]
Abby: On the clock you came out. [audience laughs] You got paid to come out to your mom.
Susan: And then she hung up on me. [audience awws] But she was okay later.
Abby: Okay, needed time.
Susan: Tara knows, she did come around. Yes. She actually yelled at my sister for being, you know, homophobic.
Tara [from the audience]: I didn’t yell at your sister, your mom did.
Susan: My mom yelled at my sister. It was great. So, so she came around.
Jane: Yeah. No, my mother, said she wished I was never born, when I came out to her. [audience awws] Yeah. That's okay. Yeah, but she came around later, and we had the Lambda book report, like Susan was saying. It was a book review journal. That was very important at the time. If you had a book come out in paperback, it would get reviewed absolutely nowhere.
You had to have the hardback, that status, to get reviewed by the Washington Post, Book World, New York Times, anywhere, right. So we had the book report, and it was critical thinking. It was also very populist. We did the romances as well. Yeah.
Susan: I did a few of those.
Jane: Yes, you did.
Susan: I got to write a few reviews myself.
Jane: Sure did.
Susan: That was fun.
Jane: Yeah, it was very fun. But mom ended up working and helping out in the office.
Susan: Your mom?
Jane: My mom. Later. Well, this was after I got back from Peace Corps, and I went back to. I went to Lamma book report.
Susan: Wow. That’s amazing.
Jane: For, like, a year, and then I went back to Lambda Rising for a year and a half. Yeah. She said, oh, I just saw two gay men walking, you know, two men walking hand in hand.
Susan: [mockingly] oooooh
Jane: Right [audience and Jane laugh]
Abby: And then, Patrick, you were a very different time. I mean, we can't help but mention that you were, you have a bookstore during this past year. And this past year in D.C. has been incredibly difficult. Yeah. So, like, what what response have you gotten from the community and just support? I mean, you opened this new location. What has that kind of been like?
Patrick: Yeah, I mean, people have been very excited with the new location. I mean, we have way more books. So they have like spend a lot more time here. And, I mean, one thing that, especially this last year and this was even before we moved locations, is like we have more people that just come and like, hang out. Like they're like, I don't have the money to buy a book at the moment, but like, I just need to not be at home on my own thinking about things like, you know, and we're like, we have a couch. Like, we're not going anywhere. We're here till seven. You're welcome to stay. And there's just a lot of like, I mean, a lot of the.
We have a lot of customers that I am always shocked where they're like, yeah, I live in like a town of 60 people. Like, me and my partner are the only Queer people in our town. And like, we go on one vacation a year, and it has to be somewhere we can drive. We drove to D.C. because there were like four places, this bookstore being one of them, that we thought would be cool to go to.
And I'm just like, you know, you drove five hours to come to my bookstore? And they’re like, yeah. You know, so it just is like the third space, safe space, and I'm kind of just happy to be able to do that more than anything. And it's so hard to articulate because people as, like, the stuff we're going through right now, it's still going on. It's hard to articulate the impact it's going to have. I mean, I think it's going to be years before we kind of understand what this period really means to people.
Panelists: [Nod and agree]
Abby: Well, we're going to go on to our, our game section of the panel that we have.
Jane: Oh wait a sec. Can I?
Abby: Yeah, go ahead.
Jane: Sorry to interject, I want to, it dawns on me now that something else is very important for me to say. So I met my first trans friend at Lambda Rising. It was Jamie Price. Do you remember Jamie?
Susan: Yeah.
Jane: Who moved to San Francisco and was Sarah, I remember.
Susan: I don't think I knew that.
Jane: Right? Nobody knew that. Right? And then he came out to me as trans, and this was the 80s, right? The late 80s.
Susan: That's great.
Jane: It is great. Right. And so I think this picture has been up here for a while, is a trans man. Who was at, this was at Lamas next to the used book section. But, Lauren Cameron is a photographer. And I just wanted to put that out there that was also a part of our experience.
Susan: We also similarly, I had, I worked when I was a weekend manager, and on Sundays it seemed it was always on Sundays. I think because parking was free. [audience laughs] But we had we had people come in probably from, I don't know where the suburbs perhaps. And men dressed as women, and you could tell that they didn't do that regularly.
And I could just tell, and I, we tried to be really nice, you know, and helpful to them. And, and you can tell they're kind of trying out their outfits and trying out their pumps and things like that. And they felt like this is one place they could come, that Lambda Rising was one place they could go, you know, and do that, and then get back into the car and go back to the other way. They were but, yeah.
Jane: That’s Deacon and Jim. Yeah, I think that's Deacon’s, that's their home.
Susan: I knew Deacon when he had a little bit of a belly.
Jane: He always had a belly when I knew him.
Susan: But back I saw a picture of him way back in the 70s, and he didn't.
Jane: Yeah. And there's Susan up in the office. We're having a birthday party. It's a little young Susan, awww. [audience laughs]
Abby: Amazing. Well, okay, so our next task. Is that we are going to rate; I'm going to give you, like, a trait of a book, and you're going to rate it like you would like a book review, so out of five stars. It'll be super quick, just like off the top of your head what you think. Okay, a hardcover book.
Susan: Four.
Jane: Three.
Patrick: [sighs and audience laughs]
Abby: Big sigh.
Patrick: Yeah, I just like, like it depends on the genre. Like, if it’s a sci-fi/fantasy. I want a hardcover, but like in a lit fic, I just want a paperback.
Abby: Okay, so easy next question: paperback books?
Susan: Trade paperback, ten. Mass market paperback, zero.
Abby: Zero?
Jane: Oh, wow. Oh, I love dimes.
Susan: I can't read them. Maybe.
Jane: Oh that's so funny.
Susan: I don't know, I just,
Jane: I mean low brow, high brow, but lots of mass markets are really good now.
Susan: I know.
Jane: Anyway, I'd say five.
Abby: Five.
Susan: We all have our own opinions.
Jane: Yeah.
Patrick: I’m going to give five specifically because I love trade paperbacks because you can fit a lot of them in your bag.
Abby: Hmmm, in the tote, the heavy tote with the three books in them.
Jane: Well, I also like hardbacks because there was a shoplifter who would come in and go to the biography section and pick out the biggest hardback book there was and run down the street.
Abby: Oh!
Susan: Yes, we had, because we had, a few. I think they were always going to the used bookstore right around the corner.
Abby: To sell them?
Susan: That's what they do. They would take the books from us, and then they would run down there, and they would sell them there and then get their money for whatever they want.
Abby: Everyone's got a gig. [audience laughs] You gotta have a gig.
Susan: We had a shoplifter. We had several shoplifters.
Jane: Yeah.
Abby: Yeah, okay. Folding pages or annotating in a book?
Jane: Well, can we separate that?
Abby: Okay. Folding pages?
Susan: Dog-ear. I like to dog-ear.
Jane: Me too.
[Patrick grimaces and audience laughs]
Abby: So a two.
Susan: A five.
Jane: A five.
Patrick: Negative six. [audience laughs]
Jane: I've done it to library books. That's terrible. [audience laughs]
Abby: Okay. How about annotating in a book? Writing in the margins?
Susan: I used to in college, but I don't know about now.
Jane: Same.
Patrick: Not for me, but you do you.
Abby: Okay, okay.
Buying a book you haven't read?
Susan: I like that.
Jane: Yeah.
Abby: Yeah. Five? Five? Wow.
Patrick: Yeah. I literally buy thousands. [audience laughs]
Jane: We want you to buy books.
Abby: Buying a book you have read?
Susan: I usually if I can't find, like if I lose a book, that or I gave it to someone and they didn't give it back or something, and then it's one that I have to have for good, you know.
Jane: Right.
Susan: And I just I buy it again. Just to have it.
Jane: I have done it.
Abby: So like a five?
Susan: A five, sorry.
Jane: Five.
Patrick: Five.
Abby: A five. Buy all the books. Okay, a friends to lovers romance? [Susan laughs]
Jane: Repeat? [audience laughs]
Abby: Like the trope in a book. The theme, like a friends to lovers.
Jane: Oh, yeah. I don't read romances, sorry.
Susan: It’s okay, I'm not,
Abby: So like a 1 or 2?
Susan: I'm not. I read a lot of nonfiction. [audience laughs]
Abby: So, it’s nothing, it's nothing.
Jane: You know what? I'm going to give that a five because I sold more naiad books thank anyone alive.
Susan: Naiad and then I saw a lot of wolf videos.
Jane: Right. Exactly. [to Susan] High five, a friend of romance.
Susan: They’re kinda similar.
Jane: Yeah.
Abby: Wolfy friends to lovers.
Patrick: I love romance. I'm going to give it a three.
Abby: A three for friends to lovers.
Patrick: Yeah. Depends on how well it's executed.
Abby: Okay. How about a rags to riches story line?
Susan: I like a memoir, a good memoir.
Abby: A good memoir? Okay.
Susan: If it's a rags to riches. Yeah, that's, those are really good sometimes.
Jane: I love Great Expectations.
Susan: Yes, Great Expectations.
Jane: Dickens did it much better [hits desk in emphasis] than J.D. Vance in Hillbilly Elegy. [audience laughs] Already covered by Great Expectations.
Patrick: I was going to give it a one because it just doesn't feel very timely. But having said memoir, I'm going to have to like up it to like a three because there are some memoirs that it’s just amazing.
Abby: Yeah. How about the ending of, it was all a dream?
Jane: [chuckles] No. 1
Abby: A 1? 0?
Susan: 1. 0. Yeah.
Patrick: Yeah, a one because today it would be, and they hallucinated the whole thing. [audience laughs]
Abby: Yeah, like a VR experience they didn't know.
Susan: You know books where you know it's like a dream the whole time. It's kind of magical realism type of, you know, but, you know, and that's lovely. But I don't like to read a whole book, and then at the end on the last page, oh, that was a dream. Like that doesn't make any sense.
Jane: So Susan and I have not seen each other for like 30 years here. And we both have dreams about the bookstores.
Susan: We do.
Jane: We shared that with each other.
Susan: We still do.
Abby: And it was not all a dream.
Susan: But sometimes they're bad, they're kind of like, you know, when you go to school and you don't have clothes on. [audience laughs]
Abby: Like, I'm late for work? I gotta open the store up.
Susan: Yeah, you missed your test. I have that kind of dream.
Abby: With Lambda?
Susan: Yeah, sometimes. Yeah, I do, I think that I'm still working there, and then I wake up and I say, oh my god. And then I'm like, I don't even know if I want to still be working here. You know, this this I'm not sure about this.
Abby: The stress work dreams.
Susan: Stress work.
Abby: Patrick still probably has them all the time.
Susan: Yes!
Patrick: You have to sleep to have dreams. [audience laughs] I mean. I mean, I was ordering at like 1:00 in the morning.
Abby: Okay, so the last one, it's more of a hot take question. Does reading, does listening to an audiobook count as reading a book?
Jane: Yes.
Patrick: Absolutely.
Susan: Well [audience laughs]
Abby: Like can you say if you listen to a book be like, I read this book?
Susan: I think you can say that, but I think it is different. I mean, I think that you reading a word on a page, reading and turning the pages, if you know you're that's how you're doing it, I that's I do it. If it's a great book. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a different experience than listening. But I do think that they're, they're just as valuable. Both of them.
Jane: Yeah, I think it counts.
Abby: It counts.
Patrick: Absolutely,
Abby: It counts.
Patrick: I do both, you normally see me with a little thing [gestures to ear] and that's, that's an audiobook.
Abby: Stunning. Okay, next section is our rapid fire questions.
We went around the room, and I collected some questions from people. Can I steal your phone, Ellie, for a timer? So we're going to give y'all a minute. And you're going to try and answer as many questions in the bowl as you can.
Susan: Okay.
Abby: And some of them are random. Maybe some of them fit on theme. I told people it could be any question in the world. So it's fair game. Let me find a timer.
Jane: We'll pick one? We just each go and pick one.
Abby: We'll go one at a time. I'll give you a minute on our timer, and you'll have to answer them as quick as you can. And then the winner gets bragging rights for as many questions as you can answer. Make sense?
Susan: Kind of.
Jane: Yeah. [audience laughs]
Abby: We'll go with it. Okay. Ready? Your time starts now.
Susan: Okay? Okay, okay.
Abby: And read it out loud.
Susan: Oh, okay. What books are on your required reading list? Okay. Dickens. [audience laughs]
What's it like running a Queer bookstore in a time of increased book banning? Oh, it sucks. [audience laughs]
What is your spirit animal? [audience laughs] Louie, who’s my dog. What was the best advice you ever got? Probably from Jane Troxell...
Jane: Aww
Susan: when she told me to move the words around in a sentence. When she looked at what I wrote and said, no, you should put the what was first, last and last first. I do that all the time now.
Jane: Yeah. Good. Yeah. That's amazing.
Abby: Five seconds.
Susan: Oh, okay. What are the biggest challenges or scariest moments? How did you ever overcome them? [timer goes off and audience laughs]
Abby: Easy, easy five second question.
Susan: This is the scariest thing. [audience laughs]
Abby: Okay, I'm going to put them back in the bowl.
Jane: Okay. I wish I had some of your question. Like I knew the answer.
Susan: You're going to get it.
Abby: We’ll mix it.
Susan: Get the weird ones.
Jane: Yeah.
Abby: Okay. Okay. Are you ready?
Jane: God help us.
Abby: And your time starts now.
Jane: Oh, Christ. I can't even open it. What's a book you hate that everyone loves? Oh, I don't know if I hate any books. [audience laughs]
What books are on your required reading list? Dickens! [audience laughs] What's your spirit animal? I don't know, a fox. [panelists laugh]
The best advice I ever got? This is funny. [to Susan] You must have, like,
Susan: I know it's...
Jane: Yeah. So when I had serious financial troubles at Lammas, and the best advice I got was from Barbara Greer of Naiad Press. She said, call up all of your creditors, your vendors, and be honest with them and tell them that you can't pay them. I mean, or like, work out, you know...
Susan: Did it work?
Jane: Yeah.
Susan: You answered that, go, go.
Jane: Yeah, but it was really good advice to be honest and get out in front of it.
Abby: Five seconds.
Jane: Oh, I just can't. [audience laughs]
Abby: Is it the same last question?
Jane: No. Something great that younger Queers will never get to experience? Well, Susan Sontag's cigarette streak. [audience laughs]
Susan: Yeah, yeah.
Abby: Perfect.
Jane: No longer with us. Let's see, we're going to [mixes bowl of questions thoroughly].
Abby: Okay. You ready? Patrick?
Patrick: Yeah.
Abby: Your time starts now. [audience laughs]
Patrick: Guilty pleasure book? Smutty sapphic romance.
Abby: Oh, yeah.
Patrick: Just give you a genre. What is your spirit animal? I'm going to say a cat because it's on all of the Japanese books, and I love that.
What books are in your required reading lists? Anything by Akwaeke Emezi. What's a book that you hate that everyone loves? I can't say it out loud. [audience laughs]
Abby: Redacted!
Patrick: What was one of the biggest challenges or scariest moments? How did you overcome? God.
Abby: 15 seconds.
Patrick: The first month where I was like, oh, do I pay the rent or do I pay the people?
I managed to figure it out and pay them both. What is something great that younger Queers will never get to experience?
God, this a hard one.
Jane: It is, yeah.
Patrick: I'm gonna. I might give you, and whether this is gonna sound really toxic, but I think it was really informative. The 90s chat room culture, and like, early 2000s culture, was like a very specific, like, Queer formative experience that millennials have that like no one else will ever have. And like, it's something that I have been able to bond with people over. So that's something that.
Abby: Wait, speak more.
Jane: [gestures to audience member] Yeah, you're really into it. [audience laughs]
Patrick: Least favorite customer question? Oh, do you have Fourth Wing? [audience laughs]
Abby: This is gonna be your last one.
Patrick: What was the best advice you ever got? Oh, ignore the haters.
Abby: Fabulous. Yay, good job everybody. [audience claps] I didn't even end up counting them, so everyone's a winner. [audience laughs]
Jane: Yeah, and I hated Reading Lolita in Tehran. Everyone loved that book, and I don't know why.
Abby: Lolita?
Jane: Yeah, yeah. No, not Lolita, but Reading Lolita in Tehran.
Susan: You didn't read the book in Tehran?
Jane: Yeah, that's the name of the book.
Susan: I know. [audience laughs] I know.
Abby: Okay, so our last section, we called it Book Club. It was that each person would think of a book or two or several, however many you want to present. That was most popular when you were a bookseller or one that inspired you.
The first Queer book you ever read that you think of, anything in that realm of, like, what book was formative to you at your stores or just to you in your life? Who would like to talk about their book first?
Susan: I would like to talk about Adrienne Rich.
Abby: Okay.
Susan: Because she meant so much to me as a poet, and Dreams of a Common Language was very important to me when I was coming out. And, and then I would say at the bookstore itself, I would say Armistead Maupin, Tales of the City, that was really big at the time, and everyone should read that series. It's really good.
Abby: What's it about?
Susan: Well,
Jane: San Francisco, gay life
Susan: San Francisco, gay life in the 70s. Yeah, but it's from the perspective of a young woman who, and it was written by Armistead Maupin, in a series of sketches that were in the newspaper in a
Jane: serialized.
Susan: Yes. And then they put them all in a book, and then he had Tales of the City, More Tales in the City.
Jane: And there was an HBO show. There was, it was on HBO and Olympia Dukakis was in it. I just remember that I really liked her in it.
Jane: He was a great friend of the store and Jim and Deacon.
Susan: He was. I think I met him.
Jane: Yeah, I’m sure you did.
Susan: Yeah, yeah. Yes.
Abby: Why do you think people liked that book so much?
Susan: It was very well-written. It's one thing. And it was just. I'm not sure. The characters were very, character driven and, they were, very complex, deep characters. And it was just about all, all things, all parts of life. Not just like someone, not just a romance, but everything. I can't, that's not a very good description, but [to Jane] what do you think?
Jane: This is, I would say this about Lambda Rising and say this about Tales of the City, everyone was so gay. I mean, just, so gay. It was just so gay all the time.
Susan: In Tales of the City?
Jane: No, at Lambda Rising.
Susan: Oh, at Lambda Rising.
Jane: I mean it was just fascinating.
Susan: What do you mean?
Jane: Oh, so Rick Mendoza was working the front desk, and I said, oh, he was like, in his 80s, I think. And I said, Rick, you, he had on these thick sunglasses, I said, you look just like Jackie O. And he said, I do? She's dead. [audience laughs]
Abby: Put it on a button.
Susan: Yeah. It was gay.
Jane: Yeah, I always say, I was raised by drag queens.
Susan: Yeah, yeah.
Jane: You know, the sense [loud clatter in audience] that wasn't me was it?
Audience member: No it was me.
Jane: The sensibility was so great, very clever and...
Susan: Very clever and witty
Jane: Yeah.
Susan: A lot of, a lot of, really smart people work there because people who wanted, I think people who wanted to work in a bookstore were generally, in general...
Jane: Like, June, did you work with June?
Susan: Yes.
Jane: Soo smart, oh my god.
Abby: What kind of book would you say was very popular at Lammas?
Jane: Well, we sold books to, women's studies classes as well. Bell Hooks, of course. Audre Lorde, of course. We sold books at feminist conferences, Gloria Steinem. But the first gay book that I ever read was Faggots by Larry Kramer and I’m just like, it's such a, you know, what was I thinking?
Susan: It’s gay male.
Jane: It's very gay male. And it's very, it's kind of a little depressing, really.
Susan: Yeah, yeah.
Abby: It's not a good fun read.
Jane: No, it's not, it’s a wonder I showed up the next day.
Susan: Did you read Rubyfruit?
Jane: So my answer, and Abby's gonna back me up on this Rubyfruit Jungle.
Abby: Yes.
Jane: It was like, that's the one.
Susan: That's the classic.
Jane: Yeah.
Abby: Explain to people about Rita Mae Brown and Rubyfruit Jungle. Like kind of the lore of that book, why it’s so popular?
Susan: She was also a really good writer.
Jane: Yep.
Susan: Funny.
Jane: Yeah, and an out lesbian at a time when you didn't, I mean this is pre Ellen, you know, pre everybody really.
Susan: Yeah.
Jane: Just a terrific book, and she is a terrific person. I think I met her once.
Susan: Yes I met her, but it wasn't. She went to a different bookstore, and I was so mad. Signing her book, and I went and stood in line, and she signed her book for me.
Abby: Patrick, what about you?
Patrick: So I'm going to give two answers. There's a personal one, and then kind of store one. Personal one, I had two books that were like, long before I opened the store, were books that I like randomly picked up in bookstores. I didn't know they were Queer, and then, like, in the process of reading it, I was like, this man is making eyes at this other man. [audience laughs]
Jane: What's up with this?
Patrick: One of them, I've never been able to remember the name of. I read it years ago. The other one was, Witchmark by C.L. Polk, which is just like, you know, kind of typical fantasy novel, but the boys like the boys. It was great, and so I think that kind of experience, like, really contributed to me wanting to do the store. I, the other book I want to mention is, Leslie Feinberg's, Stone Butch Blues. And I think it's just because I was, like, aware of it before I had the store. And we sell it in the store. You only find this book in Queer bookstores just because of a lot of logistical reasons. Queer bookstores are the only people who are willing to, like, make the effort because it's very hard to get, and it just means so much to so many people and like, captures such like a complicated, time in, like, such a visceral way. So, I just think that that's a book that I will always shout out.
Abby: Yeah.
Jane: No, no, it's I have a picture of Leslie Feinberg.
Abby: Really?
Jane: Yeah.
Abby: At which store?
Jane: At Lammas.
Susan: She also came to Lambda Rising.
Jane: Yeah, I'm sure she would have.
Abby: While she's looking for the photos, we wanted to do, the last part was for anyone in the audience who had any questions that they want to ask. You can let that brew while we find the photos.
Jane: Oh. Just ask. I'll be here. [audience laughs]
Abby: Anyone? Anyone got a question? Yes.
Bailey: Hi, so my name is Bailey. I am a Queer librarian, and I work for the Library of Congress. And there is obviously such a wonderful history of Queer folks in government who have dealt with so, so much, before my time.
And it's wonderful to hear your stories as booksellers and an industry that works very closely with us. I was just wondering, for folks in these literary professions, especially Queer folks who are continuing to move forward, what's the advice that you would give to us as we continue to open up, our shops, our spaces, and our hearts to folks? How do we continue to fulfill the legacy that you started for us?
Susan: That's hard. [audience laughs]
Jane: I was working on the pictures.
Susan: Just keep doing what you're doing. I don't know, I think that actually, if you're able to be completely out and open and yourself, I think that is one of the most important things. And.
Yeah, that's a really hard question. I'm caught off guard. Yeah, but what do you what do you guys think? What do you all think?
Patrick: I mean, I kind of want to say it's like, don't give up. And I think one thing that I, I think so much of the news is focused on book bans and all of, like, the negative things that happen around getting Queer stories out.
But since I opened the store, I've made it a point to go to a lot of like, industry things. And, I am, like, continuously surprised when I find out, like, how Queer the infrastructure has become. I mean, I went to, like a little thing in New York that Harper Collins had for booksellers to come and hear some pitch and be wined and dined for a little bit.
And I was like, I like free food. And, you know, I like I met someone who was like a junior editor. They were just like, I am, you know, working day and night to like get these stories that just, like, would not get out there, get out there. And it was just really inspiring.
And like, I have a lot of those types of things. So, like, I just I think you have to, like, latch on to the, like the positive changes that are happening.
Jane: Yeah, you know, well like you two said, keep on keepin on. One thing I would like to point out is I don't recognize a single book here, and I have sold a lot of books.
I mean, I'm sure some of the oldies but goodies are here, but just the number, the sheer number of books that you are carrying, it's mind blowing.
Susan: I’ve learned a lot, just to, after you asked us to do this, I started looking into books, gay and lesbian books and all kinds of things, and it's like I didn't recognize any of these titles either. But it's great.
Jane: It's amazing.
Susan: Because there's so many, there's so many different authors out there writing these books. It's great. There weren't that many back then, back in the day.
Jane: I mean, I think this [referring to Little District Books] is about the same size, and not quite as big as Lambda Rising, but maybe Lammas.
Susan: Maybe Lammas.
Jane: Yeah.
Susan: I think Lambda was maybe a little bigger, but.
Jane: Yeah, but it had a lot of gifts and stuff. But really, it's amazing that this many books are out there. And you do see books on the same, like all the bestsellers I was reading turned out to be a lesbian. [audience laughs] Like the Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. Lesbian! [audience laughs]
Abby: I love that book. That was a book that I read that I didn't know it was gay when I picked it up. And then halfway through I went what are doing here?
Jane: Yes, what are we doing here, exactly!
Abby: And, it was great. You should read it. It's a good one.
Jane: And the same author, Taylor Jenkins Reed, that atmosphere book. The astronaut one, lesbian. [audience laughs] And they're both excellent books. So it's really something.
Susan: It's become a part of the culture. It's integrated.
Jane: Yeah.
Susan: It's not separated the way it used to be as much, but also there's a lot of really, I don't know, I don't want to keep talking but, there's some really good old books that I really was into, some of the classic books, like The Well of Loneliness. Do you know that?
[Abby shakes head no]
Susan: Okay. That's from like the 1920s. Yeah, yeah. And it's by Radclyffe Hall, and, but, all the books, the old books before the 19, maybe 80s, 1970s, I don't know, they all ended very sadly. Almost all of them. But there was, do you remember, Ann Bannon books, Beebo Brinker. [Jane and Susan laugh] I love those books.
Yeah. It's kind of like, Lauren Goes Wilder. Goes to New York City. [Jane laughs] Or something. No, maybe not.
Jane: No. [audience laughs] I don't remember the names of the book.
Susan: But they were all about Beebo Brinker.
Jane: Yeah. Gay gal adventures.
Susan: Yeah, gay gal, yeah, that's what it was. Her adventures.
Abby: Any other questions? Okay. Dorothy.
Dorothy: One quick one and then the one a little longer. I do want to know, Patrick. What's the book that, everyone loves that you hate? [audience laughs]
Audience Member: It's a safe space.
Abby: Yeah, we can redact it.
Jane: Yeah don’t mind the cameras or the phones. We'll put a bleep.
Patrick: Honestly, there are several. [audience laughs] I'm trying to think of like, what is the one that is like the most popular. And I'm just, there are a few that I'm just like, why is everyone so obsessed with this? It's not that they're bad. [audience laughs] I just don't get why people are so obsessed with it. I mean, I don't know. Well, what's the other question?
Dorothy: I mean, well, I, I'm in the process of trying to open a Queer cafe in the area, and when we're thinking about, like, third spaces, safe spaces, invisible spaces, as much progress as we've made now, as far as the visibility and being able to live and love out loud, there's still, there's so much risk, and it seems like sometimes we're going very much backwards in that way. How do you, how did you handle it and how do you handle it? The balance of, this space is needed, and I'm the one that needs to make sure it survives with the risk, like just all the risks that comes with being a visible Queer space. How do you feel that? How do you how do you balance that every day?
Patrick: This is a light question. [audience laughs]
Abby: Easy.
Patrick: I almost want to say that, like, part of it is that, like, you can't think about it because it is so crushing to think about, like, all the things. We have events, anytime we have, like, an event that, like, draws in a new segment of people, I inevitably have someone like DM me on Instagram asking about, like how safe it is to attend this event. And like, I it's so like, I don't think that most people get like, how afraid people feel in this moment. And like, I don't really know that there's like a good answer to your question because there's just like so much where people are concerned about so many things. I mean, my strategy usually is just like I sort of I'm trying not to think about it.
I mean, I do plan for safety issues. To me, the biggest thing is that like financing a business in 2026 is horrible. And like, just like, especially when our business is where you're kind of being like, 94% of people are probably not going to come to my business. So, like, that is probably your bigger concern is just that. I mean, I know a lot of people that own small businesses in D.C. and like, and Queer businesses and non-Queer businesses and it's just tough.
Like, it's just it's horrible. I mean, I think the big thing is just like reminding people that, like, what these spaces mean to people and like, you know, be intentional with how you spend. Stop buying on Amazon. I'm like, just stop buying on Amazon. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that answers your question, but my ramble. I will give you a book answer.
And it's not that I think the book is bad, it's that. So R.F. Kuang has written many books that are very popular, and people talk about Babel as being this like, magical thing. And I'm just like, it's the worst book she's written. And there are many people I cannot say that in the room because they would have a heart attack. So that's the one.
Abby: We'll take one last question.
Audience Member: Okay. So, I was wondering if you could go back in time and relive one day at each of your book stores, what day was it? What happened that day?
Susan: It was. I can remember exactly the day that, we had the March on Washington in D.C. and the bookstore. Everyone was all hands on deck, all hands on deck.
And we had a line going out of the store, down the block, around the block, around all, completely around the block. Like it was amazing. And it was so exciting. Yeah, that's I remember that because we just didn't have time to even think.
Jane: And well I had just bought Lammas the month before, we got it all stocked up and the same thing. I mean, we made $90,000 in our first month or something insane because of the March on Washington. You know, it didn't last, but. I don’t want to end on a sad note, but if I could go back in time, it'd be the day before the AIDS crisis started.
Susan: Yeah, well that's a big one.
Jane: It is. Well, COVID brought up a lot of that for me. So.
Susan: Yeah.
Jane: Let's answer something else. Sorry I'm gonna go back to something fun.
Abby: Patrick do you have a day?
Patrick: Yeah, I actually have like, the thing that I would give is, like, something really similar. It was the first Saturday after a post about our store went viral on the Washingtonian’s Instagram at the same time that—I’m like trying to think of what—there were like two things that were like simultaneously, like massive jump in exposure.
We'd been open a few months, and that first Saturday, like 20 times the normal number of people came to the store, and I was like, this is amazing. We've had very few days since then. [audience laughs] But I was like, oh my God, people are so excited. I'm going to be rich. I’m not rich. [audience laughs]
Jane: Yeah. The grand, the grand reopening of Lammas. It was the same thing. We had Sweet Honey in the Rock there, and they signed things. Yeah, it was great. And. Yeah, people lined up down the street. Yeah.
Abby: So the lesson is, shop local, come to these stores often, be a regular, and create community, like that's the lesson of those days is that don't just come once come, come more than once. This is more than just a place to buy books.
Jane: Yeah, absolutely. Well said.
Susan: Very well said.
Abby: Well, thank you all so much for being here today. That's our panel. [audience claps] Is it your birthday today?
Susan: It's tomorrow.
Abby: Tomorrow. We have a birthday tomorrow. [audience cheers] So I feel like it's appropriate for all of us to sing Happy Birthday.
Susan: No.
Abby: Yes, we have to!
Susan: No, no, don't do that.
Abby: Are you ready?
Audience sings: Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, dear Susan. Happy birthday to you!
